j0lt wrote:JaredGaume wrote:Armor and Defenses
Our general discussion about hit points, damage, and everything else seems a little vague without having an idea about how they "click into place". I am assuming a SWSE take on defenses rather than a d20M.
A fifth model could be similar to a combination of 1 & 4:
Model 5 - Armor as Hardness and Defenses
Armor Class (AC) - Your ability to avoid getting hit by attacks by the protection of armor.
Physical melee and ranged attacks target your AC, if they fail you take no damage, if hit you take normal damage.
= 15 + Dex or Int Bonus + 1/2 level + Armor bonus + other bonuses
Fortitude Defense - Your ability to stave off physical effects like poison, etc...
"Unavoidable" impacts, this is you pushing back or "ignoring the pain."
= 15 + Con bonus + 1/2 level + other bonuses
Reflex Defense - Your ability to avoid effects or being hit.
Last ditch avoidance, the target of "touch" attacks that just want to see if they connect and don't care if they penetrate.
= 15 + Dex1 bonus + 1/2 level + other bonuses
Will Defense - Your mental toughness, sanity, and well willpower.
Target of psychological and many "magic" attacks, this is a measure of what is going on in your head at any given time.
= 15 + Wis bonus + 1/2 level + other bonuses
Note, that I changed it to base 15, due to the expectation that it should scale evenly with a trained skill (assuming we're basing this off Saga numbers). Physical attacks target either AC or Reflex Defense (whichever is higher), basically your character's armor taking the hit, or the character dodging the attack. This should keep balance between agile characters and tank types. Fortitude and Will are not affected by armor, except in certain cases for Fort (such as wearing a gas mask).
The point of defense 10 + ... is built off d20M/3.0 saving throws. In essense the defense value is averaging your save rate. Going 15 + becomes gamist and amps the power level of the game unnecissarily based on an assumption of how strongly characters can be front-loaded in the early levels.
That would mean (see previous post on Attacks and Skills) that the base defense terms aren't the problem. It is the ability to SO HEAVILY front load a character's power level that is the problem.
I would prefer to baseline the power level, i.e. hit points and defenses, then scale bonuses to match. This may mean overall a lower powered game than before, but with a much more solid grasp of how the numbers are affecting everything. When you get a +1 bonus to anything, that should be a big deal because you weren't getting that bonus before.
As I stated previously, at first level, most of your bonuses and benefits should come from your abilities. Only as you increase your experience and level do you start to gain a set of bonuses that can exceed your ability bonuses. Maybe only count on a TOTAL of +2 or +3 bonus points from various sources other than ability scores to any one stat at first level, later on you can slowly expand this.
Note, I am counting bonuses from talents and feats here. Like armor, we can include equipment that gives us situational or permenant bonuses in the use of our skills. So you could have weapons, tool kits, protective items, etc... that give you a +1 to +3 bonus on use.
j0lt wrote:This defense model doesn't use saving throws in the traditional sense. Instead, attacks target their most "logical" target. As a player you are going to have better defenses than others. This creates openings that opponents may exploit. If you are a tough armored opponent, they may go after your poor Reflex or Will defense.
Saving throws are "roll d20, if you get 10 or more you save". Some abilties can improve this situationally, but largely it is a 55% save rate.
This is another 4e mechanic that I don't like at all. I feel there should be some progression to saving throws, for example: d20 + Ref/Con/Wis modifier + class bonus + 1/2 level
Of course, this makes it almost identical to the 3 defense scores, which means we're running two sets of numbers that do more or less the same thing. I'm starting to think we should go back to d20 Modern style Defense & Saves, but updated to suit the particulars of e20.
Either we have discrete defenses or discrete saving throws, otherwise it becomes horribly redundant. I favor defenses because it reduces the number of dice rolls.
Remember earlier that I wanted to get down to 1 dice roll per action. By adding more saving throws this increases the frequency in which actions are resolved by 2 or more rolls. I want to weigh my options and pick the one I think is going to work best, not get foiled by an endless series of dice rolls.
You use your saving throw to end something that is affecting you from round to round, like ongoing damage, or an insect that keeps buzzing you ear. You could spend an Action Point to get rid of it automatically, or you could take your chances and see if you get lucky (55% chance). When you make your saving throw, it is a one shot event, you don't just end one thing affecting you, you end everything affecting you at the end of your turn. You might get access to feats or talents that let you add a situational modifier to your saving throw when trying to end some effects.
I would advocate that most effects tend to not be ongoing in and of themselves. Most end automatically at the end of your turn. Or it is something you have to spend a swift action to keep it up round after round.
We could also just toss the whole idea of saving throws to begin with, and focus on defenses and other mechanics.
It isn't what you do, it's how you get there.